View Full Version : Leeds Tribunal
RedRabbit
16-04-2008, 18:30
The 3-man independent tribunal looking in to the 15 point deduction of Leeds Utd got underway today.
According to sports law specialist Richard Cramer, Leeds have 30% chance of regain all 15 points.
Leeds' lawyers will attempt to convince the panel the League acted outside their jurisdiction when docking the points as punishment for allegedly breaking competition rules on insolvency.
source:http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11719_3430036,00.html
Shanks1965
16-04-2008, 18:34
The 3-man independent tribunal looking in to the 15 point deduction of Leeds Utd got underway today.
According to sports law specialist Richard Cramer, Leeds have 30% chance of regain all 15 points.
source:http://www.skysports.com/story/0,19528,11719_3430036,00.html
I'd love them to get the points back but I can't see it:thumbsdownsmileyani
wednesday4life
16-04-2008, 18:53
acted outside their jurisdiction- if thats their argument they've got less chance then i thought
They've got a good chance of getting in the play-offs anyway. If they were given 15 points back now, I think they'd be in second place. If they finished second, that would upset Carlisle. If they're given back SOME points one of the teams in the play-off position would be pushed out so someone's going to get hurt no matter what.
poolie_chick
16-04-2008, 20:27
I can't see them getting the points back.
Black Swan
17-04-2008, 21:34
Leeds fans are past caring, one way or the other who gives a toss.
We are Leeds, we the fans are the club, not the t3ssers who cocked the finances up.
It is our money that was p4ssed down the pot.
Leeds fans are past caring, one way or the other who gives a toss.
We are Leeds, we the fans are the club, not the t3ssers who cocked the finances up.
It is our money that was p4ssed down the pot.
I tend to disagree with you there my friend. The fans are not Leeds. History and glory is what a club is all about. Leeds were a fantastic club in the sixties and seventies and it is because of that that they are regarded, in my opinion, as a big club. I'll take an uneducated guess and say you weren't part of that era. Therefore you, and the majority of todays fans are not Leeds.
poolie_chick
17-04-2008, 21:52
I tend to disagree with you there my friend. The fans are not Leeds. History and glory is what a club is all about. Leeds were a fantastic club in the sixties and seventies and it is because of that that they are regarded, in my opinion, as a big club. I'll take an uneducated guess and say you weren't part of that era. Therefore you, and the majority of todays fans are not Leeds.
Well said :thup
Black Swan
17-04-2008, 21:58
I tend to disagree with you there my friend. The fans are not Leeds. History and glory is what a club is all about. Leeds were a fantastic club in the sixties and seventies and it is because of that that they are regarded, in my opinion, as a big club. I'll take an uneducated guess and say you weren't part of that era. Therefore you, and the majority of todays fans are not Leeds.
You are so wrong my friend, I attended my first game in the sixties, a 4-1 win against Sheffield United.
I have spent a lifetime following Leeds and I have to put up with some of the wŁnkers on here who think they are supporters.
In my opinion some of them do not know what supporting a club is.
So keep your uneducated guess and do with it what you will
You state that Leeds were a great club in the 60's and 70's, Leeds United are still a great club.
Crewe, Halifax, Southend are all great clubs to the true supporters who support them.
Success is a bonus.
So keep your uneducated guess and do with it what you will
You state that Leeds were a great club in the 60's and 70's, Leeds United are still a great club.
I apologize for the uneducated guess.
I didn't say Leeds WERE a great club. I said that I still regard them as a great club now because of their exploits in the 60's and 70's.
Black Swan
17-04-2008, 22:12
I apologize for the uneducated guess.
I didn't say Leeds WERE a great club. I said that I still regard them as a great club now because of their exploits in the 60's and 70's.
In your original post you actually stated "fantastic" look up the word fantastic, tremendous.
Great, world class, superb, tremendous, sensational are just some of the words that the word "fantastic" means.
Leeds United are a "fantastic" club, end of.
In your original post you actually stated "fantastic" look up the word fantastic, tremendous.
Great, world class, superb, tremendous, sensational are just some of the words that the word "fantastic" means.
Leeds United are a "fantastic" club, end of.
er, I not saying they're not. End of.
paulbarker7
17-04-2008, 23:02
hope they get an extra took away tbh
domcassells
17-04-2008, 23:21
i think it should only have been a 10 point reduction, but it's too late to do something now, it would be stupid to change the whole league this late on.
i think it should only have been a 10 point reduction, but it's too late to do something now, it would be stupid to change the whole league this late on.
It would seem silly to change things now. It might upset too many clubs but I wonder how Leeds FC and their fans would feel if they were 15 points off 6th place at this time of the season?
RedRabbit
19-04-2008, 02:44
looks like leeds fans and everyone else will have to wait until May 1st.
http://www.tribalfootball.com/article.php?id=88616
gornalwolves1
20-04-2008, 14:28
i still think leeds got what they deserved, this case if unsuccesful should serve as a warning to teams close to adminstration
It would seem silly to change things now. It might upset too many clubs but I wonder how Leeds FC and their fans would feel if they were 15 points off 6th place at this time of the season?
I reckon they'll get some points back. Enough to keep them in the play-off positions but not enough to effect the top two places.
I reckon they'll get some points back. Enough to keep them in the play-off positions but not enough to effect the top two places.
That would make sense. Be fair too.
poolie_chick
23-04-2008, 19:24
That would make sense. Be fair too.
To be honest, I don't think it's fair to give them the points back now because the reduction of those points will have effected their mind-set on and off the pitch and, to be honest, is what I think made them so determined at the beginning of the season to play really well and try as much as possible not to lose. Although I have no doubts that they would have not had a great deal of difficulty in this league, I do think that they would be in the "rat race" if you will, with the rest of the teams had they not had the 15 points deducted.
To be honest, I don't think it's fair to give them the points back now because the reduction of those points will have effected their mind-set on and off the pitch and, to be honest, is what I think made them so determined at the beginning of the season to play really well and try as much as possible not to lose. Although I have no doubts that they would have not had a great deal of difficulty in this league, I do think that they would be in the "rat race" if you will, with the rest of the teams had they not had the 15 points deducted.
Are you saying that they wouldn't be contenders for the play-offs if they HADN'T had 15 points deducted?
poolie_chick
23-04-2008, 19:47
Are you saying that they wouldn't be contenders for the play-offs if they HADN'T had 15 points deducted?
No, I said in my post that I have no doubt that this league would prevent few difficulties for Leeds.
But I'm saying that I don't think that they would have started their season as well as they did. The start of the season for Leeds was very much based on catching up to other teams and gaining back the 15 points - which they did very well. Had it not been for those 15 points that they needed to earn back, I don't think that they'd have gotten them back with such effort, confidence, or ease.
Simonutd
23-04-2008, 19:47
when will we here a decision
poolie_chick
23-04-2008, 19:51
1st of May according to R.Rabbit.
superally
23-04-2008, 22:19
Would be great to see them get the point's back,sadly i cant see it tho.
wednesday4life
24-04-2008, 11:09
it would be an absolute disgrace to see them get the points back
i mean what does that tell people? it's fine to break the rules and the terms of any signed legal document and don't worry if a points deduction affects promotion or relegation we can always decide that in the courts- or is it saying teams that have won a fake european trophy, 3 league titles, and a total of 2 major cups can decide like that but noone else? (we'd have a great chance- maybe we should try suing for the points referees have cost us, 4 league titles 3 fa cups and a league cup should put us in that bracket of clubs that can get away with murder)
poolie_chick
24-04-2008, 12:40
it would be an absolute disgrace to see them get the points back
i mean what does that tell people? it's fine to break the rules and the terms of any signed legal document and don't worry if a points deduction affects promotion or relegation we can always decide that in the courts- or is it saying teams that have won a fake european trophy, 3 league titles, and a total of 2 major cups can decide like that but noone else? (we'd have a great chance- maybe we should try suing for the points referees have cost us, 4 league titles 3 fa cups and a league cup should put us in that bracket of clubs that can get away with murder)
Yea, I agree that if you break the rules, you get punished. It really is as simple as that.
gornalwolves1
24-04-2008, 17:49
the decision was made before the season kicked off so it should remain,after leeds broke rules, they finish the season on the total they have gained over 46 games!
I think it would be fair if they made the play-offs. I'd like to see them go up.
gornalwolves1
24-04-2008, 18:51
I think it would be fair if they made the play-offs. I'd like to see them go up.
can't say i do want them them to go up, can't stand the regime behind the club and the happenings there over the past eighteen months or so:mad:
Black Swan
24-04-2008, 20:50
the decision was made before the season kicked off so it should remain,after leeds broke rules, they finish the season on the total they have gained over 46 games!
Hi Mr Gornal, could you please clarify, what rules Leeds United actually broke.
I am interested to know what you or indeed anybody else on here perceive to be the rule break.
Secondly, do you Mr Gornal believe that the authorities had the right to ask all the other clubs in the leagues - Championship, Div 1 and 2 to vote on the decision.
Good old Forest only Div 1 club to actually support Leeds, wonder why, because they have a sense of fair play? I wonder.
wednesday4life
25-04-2008, 08:16
rule break was lack of a cva in clear breach of insolvency policy
and whether it was fair that the appeal was voted on was fair is beside the point- the sanction was imposed by the league on the advice of their disciplinary panel and noone else- something leeds fans seem oblivious to
thats before the questions of whether the administration process itself was done properly
From what I understand, Leeds United were allowed to continue in the football league on the understanding that they receive a 15 point penalty. After Ken Bates bought the club from the administrators, it was on the understanding that Leeds start the new season but with points docked. The club appealed against the sanction but the football league rejected Leeds request.
wednesday4life
25-04-2008, 09:36
but how did ken bates buy them within an hour of a four week administration period? (indeed, how can it be classed as a buyout when administration doesn't involve the transefer of shares and ken bates already owned 50%- he's bought 50% off himself with a different company and certain creditors were supposed to be his companies, see money laundering below)
what were they hiding that meant it had to be his offer accepted (indeed other offers weren't even looked at)?
an mp has called for the fraud squad to investigate the administration process for money laundering among other things- i'd love to see that happen, finally clear a few things up
Well it won't be long now and maybe a few things will be revealed at the same time though I very much doubt it.
RedRabbit
30-04-2008, 19:23
latest news is that the tribunal will make their ruling public thursday at 1700 gmt.
I think they waited until now to see if they got into the playoffs. Now that this has happened they won't give Leeds any points back, well thats what I think
wednesday4life
30-04-2008, 19:54
they should take more off for breach of arbitration rules when they sent out the letter
I feel sorry for the fans but rules are rules , it should stand as it is , leeds should win playoffs anyway.
Leeds didn't get the points back.:no2: Play-offs it is!
I hope they win the play-offs. They deserve promotion, I think.
I hope they win the play-offs. They deserve promotion, I think.
I agree..:nod
Shanks1965
01-05-2008, 17:09
I agree..:nod
hear hear Come on Leeds :thup
wednesday4life
01-05-2008, 17:33
they deserved 15 points off, they deserve abuse for the last 8 months of **** them and the fans have spouted, they deserve the tag of most hated club in the country
they don't deserve promotion
Shanks1965
01-05-2008, 17:45
they deserved 15 points off, they deserve abuse for the last 8 months of **** them and the fans have spouted, they deserve the tag of most hated club in the country
they don't deserve promotion
No Man Utd have that one sewn up:icon_mrgr:
poolie_chick
01-05-2008, 17:50
Leeds didn't get the points back.:no2:
They didn't deserve any points back. Rules are rules.
they deserved 15 points off, they deserve abuse for the last 8 months of **** them and the fans have spouted, they deserve the tag of most hated club in the country
they don't deserve promotion
Yes they do...:nod.
poolie_chick
01-05-2008, 20:17
Yes they do...:nod.
How can you say they do until you see them win the play-off finals? At the end of the day, it's the team that goes all the way to the end fighting like it's their last chance to.
Leeds deserve, without doubt, to be in the play-offs for turning around the 15 point deficit.
Whether or not they deserve promotion depends on how well they do in the play-offs.
poolie_chick
01-05-2008, 20:49
Leeds deserve, without doubt, to be in the play-offs for turning around the 15 point deficit.
Whether or not they deserve promotion depends on how well they do in the play-offs.
Of course they deserve to be in the play-offs, else they wouldn't be there. But at the end of the day, they only came back from the 15 points because they had to... had they not had them deducted, I highly doubt they'd have performed as well as they did at the beginning of the season.
Black Swan
01-05-2008, 20:57
Of course they deserve to be in the play-offs, else they wouldn't be there. But at the end of the day, they only came back from the 15 points because they had to... had they not had them deducted, I highly doubt they'd have performed as well as they did at the beginning of the season.
Highly doubt :lol
What about lowly doubt:lol
poolie_chick
03-05-2008, 12:40
Highly doubt :lol
What about lowly doubt:lol
No, I said highly doubt for a reason. I think it's fantastic how your defence mechanism lacks constructivism. It's cute really.
wednesday4life
03-05-2008, 13:15
its all that bitter- rots the brain and prevents things being constructive (or witty, or apparently intelligent)
its all that bitter- rots the brain and prevents things being constructive (or witty, or apparently intelligent)
Do you mean "bitterness", because I'm pretty sure the Swan mentioned that he doesn't drink?
poolie_chick
03-05-2008, 13:24
Do you mean "bitterness", because I'm pretty sure the Swan mentioned that he doesn't drink?
Boom boom.
Boom boom.
Shake the room.......tick........tick.........tick.......... ......BOOM!!
Boom boom.
Shake the room.......tick........tick.........tick.......... ......BOOM!!
I don't get it?????:S
gornalwolves1
04-05-2008, 06:08
even though they have reached the play-offs, i hope doncaster rovers go up, no team,includind leeds,deserve it in football, it has to be earned on the pitch,off the pitch,the club is a shambles/laughing stock in my eyes
wednesday4life
04-05-2008, 09:41
some of the more interesting findings from the tribunal (see if you still think they deserve promotion after this)
regulation 11 states that a new member should begin in league 2- leeds newco were a new member (as discussed before the sale went through and after the cva had failed). indeed the club had agreed to the points deduction at that point and after the sale wrote to confirm there was no cva but made no metion as to why the already discussed points deduction should be varied or waived
so- the club should have started in league 2, the delay was too long, the compromise agreement saying they accepted the decision was found to still be binding, and the argument of it being unlawfull and outside the leagues jurisdiction was (as expected) pretty much just laughed at
even though they have reached the play-offs, i hope doncaster rovers go up, no team,includind leeds,deserve it in football, it has to be earned on the pitch,off the pitch,the club is a shambles/laughing stock in my eyes
some of the more interesting findings from the tribunal (see if you still think they deserve promotion after this)
regulation 11 states that a new member should begin in league 2- leeds newco were a new member (as discussed before the sale went through and after the cva had failed). indeed the club had agreed to the points deduction at that point and after the sale wrote to confirm there was no cva but made no metion as to why the already discussed points deduction should be varied or waived
so- the club should have started in league 2, the delay was too long, the compromise agreement saying they accepted the decision was found to still be binding, and the argument of it being unlawfull and outside the leagues jurisdiction was (as expected) pretty much just laughed at
You both confuse me. For me its what happens on the pitch that matters, and considering where Leeds are despite the 15 point handicap, then yes I'd like to see them progress!
wednesday4life
04-05-2008, 09:49
considering where leeds are they are a league too high, and having had no grounds for tribunal that should be enforced
considering where leeds are they are a league too high, and having had no grounds for tribunal that should be enforced
Can't you just accept the decisions that have been made and draw a line under it. Get back to following the ball instead of the red tape. Whatever happens in the play-offs, which ever league Leeds are playing in next season, lets just let them play!
some of the more interesting findings from the tribunal (see if you still think they deserve promotion after this)
regulation 11 states that a new member should begin in league 2- leeds newco were a new member (as discussed before the sale went through and after the cva had failed). indeed the club had agreed to the points deduction at that point and after the sale wrote to confirm there was no cva but made no metion as to why the already discussed points deduction should be varied or waived
so- the club should have started in league 2, the delay was too long, the compromise agreement saying they accepted the decision was found to still be binding, and the argument of it being unlawfull and outside the leagues jurisdiction was (as expected) pretty much just laughed at
It's not Leeds United's fault that they didn't start in Division 2. That's the fault of the Football League. Leeds had their punishment and it's a credit to the club and their players that they they got into the play-offs after their 15 point deduction.
Any club that is penalised for breaking the rules or going into administration has to deserve credit for paying the price and recovering itself, surely?
wednesday4life
04-05-2008, 17:05
not whaen they complain that much- if they can complain at the league doing them a favour i can call on all fans to rally for the correct decision to be made
poolie_chick
04-05-2008, 17:07
At the end of the day, Leeds got 15 points deducted and they've managed to get into the playoffs. I believe that it was the right decision not to give back the 15 points, but, as it's not their fault that they are in League One instead of League Two, and they've worked to get to where they are then they deserve to be in the playoffs. I don't think they deserve to go up, but thats my opinion as I think there have been stronger, more consistent throughout the league.
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