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Harold

Thankfully all Scots

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13 hours ago, Harold said:
I agree that calling the cops and claiming a hate crime is definitely over the top.
However, I think he is justified in feeling aggrieved. While Scotland remains part of the UK then Scottish banknotes are legal tender.
I thought that the parochial "Little Englander" practice of refusing to accept them had died out long ago.

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8 hours ago, boro_boy said:

On a serious note, they have to accept it as its legal tender. 

Actually they don't. It is up to the individual as to whether they accept it as payment. There are no Scottish banknotes which are legal tender even in Scotland. Have a look at the links below.

6 hours ago, Hairy Scot said:

However, I think he is justified in feeling aggrieved. While Scotland remains part of the UK then Scottish banknotes are legal tender.

Unfortunately he isn't Hairy. As I said to BB Scottish banknotes are not legal tender.

https://edu.bankofengland.co.uk/knowledgebank/what-is-legal-tender/

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2010/05/true-or-false-scottish-notes-arent-legal-tender/

 

Just for the record....any time we have holidayed down south or abroad we ALWAYS take English notes to save any hassle. It is oh so easy to exchange your scottish notes for english if you have a bank account.

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50 minutes ago, Harold said:

Actually they don't. It is up to the individual as to whether they accept it as payment. There are no Scottish banknotes which are legal tender even in Scotland. Have a look at the links below.

Unfortunately he isn't Hairy. As I said to BB Scottish banknotes are not legal tender.

https://edu.bankofengland.co.uk/knowledgebank/what-is-legal-tender/

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2010/05/true-or-false-scottish-notes-arent-legal-tender/

 

Just for the record....any time we have holidayed down south or abroad we ALWAYS take English notes to save any hassle. It is oh so easy to exchange your scottish notes for english if you have a bank account.

OK, there is a very restrictive definition of what is and is not legal tender. However, in practice there is in fact no legal barrier to using any of the notes printed by any UK bank in any of the member countries of the UK since such use is mandated by Parliament.

But you are right to be prudent and get the correct notes either from your bank of from an ATM in the country you are visiting. Or use a credit or debit card.

Edited by Hairy Scot

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1 minute ago, Hairy Scot said:

OK, there is a very restrictive definition of what is and is not legal tender

Restrictive ? I thought it was very clear mate.

2 minutes ago, Hairy Scot said:

However, in practice there is in fact no legal barrier to using any of the notes printed by any UK bank in any of the member countries of the UK.

Correct but it is down to the individual shopkeeper (or similar) as to whether they accept the payment and the purchaser has to accept that, no matter how much they bitch about it.

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13 hours ago, Harold said:

Restrictive ? I thought it was very clear mate.

Correct but it is down to the individual shopkeeper (or similar) as to whether they accept the payment and the purchaser has to accept that, no matter how much they bitch about it.

Restrictive does not mean unclear.

If a shopkeeper wishes to refuse service then he is of course free to do so. But that should be made clear to the shopper before any transaction takes place.

While Scottish and Northern Irish bank notes are not strictly legal tender, they are UK Parliament-approved legal currency, which makes them a perfectly acceptable way to pay. So there are absolutely no legal or moral grounds for refusing to accept those notes. 

For a post office to refuse legal currency is probably a contravention of the regulations governing how post offices should be run. But there are little jobsworths everywhere who like to exercise their "powers".

 

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I could not count the amount of times iv'e had English banknotes and coins refused in Scotland, been a fair few times, especially years ago when the pound coin was introduced, and you could actually buy something for a pound.

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13 minutes ago, The Realist said:

I could not count the amount of times iv'e had English banknotes and coins refused in Scotland, been a fair few times, especially years ago when the pound coin was introduced, and you could actually buy something for a pound.

Coins??

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1 hour ago, Hairy Scot said:

Coins??

Yes fella in England we no longer have £1 notes we have £1 coins, notes were ditched in the early 80's. We also have a £2 coin. I have a few Scottish bank notes. 3 Different banks, Clydesdale bank, bank of Scotland and the royal bank of Scotland. My grand daughter is a big collector of coins and bank notes. She has a few thousand pounds worth of valid tender in her collection, yet always tells me she needs money for this or that, and like a mug i always give in.

2008onepoundrev500.png

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Just now, The Realist said:

Yes fella in England we no longer have £1 notes we have £1 coins, notes were ditched in the early 80's. We also have a £2 coin. I have a few Scottish bank notes. 3 Different banks, Clydesdale bank, bank of Scotland and the royal bank of Scotland. My grand daughter is a big collector of coins and bank notes. She has a few thousand pounds worth of valid tender in her collection, yet always tells me she needs money for this or that, and like a mug i always give in.

2008onepoundrev500.png

I left UK in 1981 but I was always under the impression that the coins were legal in all UK countries and that the banknotes were the only issue with some segments of society.

I recall an incident in the 60s when as a prospective RAF recruit I was at Bigginhill and a shopkeeper accepted my Bank of Scotland £1 note but gave me a tanner short in the change with the explanation that Scottish £1 note was only worth 19/6.

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10 minutes ago, Hairy Scot said:

I left UK in 1981 but I was always under the impression that the coins were legal in all UK countries and that the banknotes were the only issue with some segments of society.

I recall an incident in the 60s when as a prospective RAF recruit I was at Bigginhill and a shopkeeper accepted my Bank of Scotland £1 note but gave me a tanner short in the change with the explanation that Scottish £1 note was only worth 19/6.

Not something i have ever really looked into, tho some shops and bars in Portugal will take English notes, at slightly less than the current exchange rate.

going back to your earlier post starting Restrictive does not mean unclear. A few years ago me and Mrs SA were in Jersey, I using 2 bankcards took £1000 out, she took £500, as you do at a cash point money straight in pocket  count it later.(there are a lot of snatch and runs around). Turned out it was Jersey notes, and unless we spent them there, we could'nt use them on the mainland. I still have a lot of that money in a drawer in my bedroom. Yet all Jersey shops and bars accepted English money.

Edited by The Realist

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8 hours ago, Hairy Scot said:

Restrictive does not mean unclear.

If a shopkeeper wishes to refuse service then he is of course free to do so. But that should be made clear to the shopper before any transaction takes place.

While Scottish and Northern Irish bank notes are not strictly legal tender, they are UK Parliament-approved legal currency, which makes them a perfectly acceptable way to pay. So there are absolutely no legal or moral grounds for refusing to accept those notes. 

For a post office to refuse legal currency is probably a contravention of the regulations governing how post offices should be run. But there are little jobsworths everywhere who like to exercise their "powers".

 

How can the shopkeeper make clear beforehand if he doesn't know what the buyer is going to pay with unless he comes in and tells the shopkeeper? Anyway, I'm not disagreeing, simply that it doesn't bother me because of what I said about the currency I take with me. The basic point of the thread was that the daft bastard complained to the Police about racism.

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10 minutes ago, Harold said:

How can the shopkeeper make clear beforehand if he doesn't know what the buyer is going to pay with unless he comes in and tells the shopkeeper? Anyway, I'm not disagreeing, simply that it doesn't bother me because of what I said about the currency I take with me. The basic point of the thread was that the daft bastard complained to the Police about racism.

Simple. The shopkeeper cannot refuse to accept legal currency.

He must have some other valid reason to refuse service.

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34 minutes ago, Hairy Scot said:

Simple. The shopkeeper cannot refuse to accept legal currency.

He must have some other valid reason to refuse service.

He can

He doesn't.

Are Scottish notes worthless?

No they’re not, they’re just not legal tender. But then neither are credit cards.

The fact is that most of us now pay by plastic cards and often used to pay by cheque. Neither is legal tender but shops are happy to accept them as payment for goods or services.

In short, what they choose to accept as payment is down to their discretion.

If you walk in with a bagful of coins, for instance, they can refuse simply because they don’t want the bother of counting them all.

 

What can I do if they refuse my notes or coins?

You don’t really have any rights. If a shopkeeper refuses a transaction, your only real option is to just go elsewhere.

You can’t force them to accept your cash or report them to the authorities if they don’t.

As the Bank of England says: “Whether you pay with banknotes, coins, debit cards or anything else as payment is a decision between you and the other person involved in the transaction.”

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19 minutes ago, Harold said:

He can

He doesn't.

Are Scottish notes worthless?

No they’re not, they’re just not legal tender. But then neither are credit cards.

The fact is that most of us now pay by plastic cards and often used to pay by cheque. Neither is legal tender but shops are happy to accept them as payment for goods or services.

In short, what they choose to accept as payment is down to their discretion.

If you walk in with a bagful of coins, for instance, they can refuse simply because they don’t want the bother of counting them all.

 

What can I do if they refuse my notes or coins?

You don’t really have any rights. If a shopkeeper refuses a transaction, your only real option is to just go elsewhere.

You can’t force them to accept your cash or report them to the authorities if they don’t.

As the Bank of England says: “Whether you pay with banknotes, coins, debit cards or anything else as payment is a decision between you and the other person involved in the transaction.”

Let's just be clear as to the different between legal tender and legal currency and also between common sense and nonsense,

Of course it makes sense for a shopkeeper to refuse to accept a sack full of 10p or 20p coins in payment for a sizeable bill. However refusing to accept what is deemed legal currency by the government of the country does not make sense at all.

That you continually refuse to acknowledge that fact makes you just as stubborn as those who persist in refusing to acknowledge that any bank note produced by any bank within the UK is legal currency.

The type of stubbornness that you so despise in those who would have an independent Scotland.

 

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2 hours ago, Hairy Scot said:

Of course it makes sense for a shopkeeper to refuse to accept a sack full of 10p or 20p coins in payment for a sizeable bill.

I agree. Only reason that was included by me was because it was in the C&P section. Really has nowt to do with this.

 

2 hours ago, Hairy Scot said:

However refusing to accept what is deemed legal currency by the government of the country does not make sense at all.

I agree and have not said otherwise.

2 hours ago, Hairy Scot said:

That you continually refuse to acknowledge that fact

Where have I refused to accept it ? I am simply posting the facts of what the shopkeeper can do!

2 hours ago, Hairy Scot said:

The type of stubbornness that you so despise in those who would have an independent Scotland.

Given my other answers in this quote perhaps you should re-evaluate your opinion.

Do you not mean a 'separate' Scotland ?

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Scottish Banknotes are legal currency – i.e. they are approved by the UK Parliament.  However, Scottish Bank notes are not Legal Tender, not even in Scotland.  In fact, no banknote whatsoever (including Bank of England notes!) qualifies for the term 'legal tender' north of the border and the Scottish economy seems to manage without that legal protection.

HM Treasury is responsible for defining which notes have ‘legal tender’ status within the United Kingdom and the following extract from Bank of England’s website may help to clarify what is meant by “legal tender” and how little practical meaning the phrase has in everyday transactions.

“The term legal tender does not in itself govern the acceptability of banknotes in transactions. Whether or not notes have legal tender status, their acceptability as a means of payment is essentially a matter for agreement between the parties involved. Legal tender has a very narrow technical meaning in relation to the settlement of debt. If a debtor pays in legal tender the exact amount he owes under the terms of a contract, he has good defence in law if he is subsequently sued for non-payment of the debt. In ordinary everyday transactions, the term ‘legal tender’ has very little practical application.”
(Ref. www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/about/faqs.htm.)

 

Let commonsense prevail.

 

For narrow read restrictive or restricted.

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23 minutes ago, Locke said:

So, why isn't it an offence then to attempt to use non legal tender to pay for something at a checkout?

Can you not grasp the simple fact that "legal currency" is what matters? "Legal Tender" is an obsolete and outdated concept.

Surely you, as a staunch supporter of the UK, can see that what parliament defines as "legal currency" is what matters and that that is applicable to all the member countries of the UK.

SO the shopkeeper has no legal right to refuse legal currency. He can refuse the transaction for any number of reasons so long as those will stand up in court, but he cannot refuse on the grounds that he deems the currency not to be legal tender.

It's simple.

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6 minutes ago, Hairy Scot said:

Can you not grasp the simple fact that "legal currency" is what matters? "Legal Tender" is an obsolete and outdated concept.

Surely you, as a staunch supporter of the UK, can see that what parliament defines as "legal currency" is what matters and that that is applicable to all the member countries of the UK.

SO the shopkeeper has no legal right to refuse legal currency. He can refuse the transaction for any number of reasons so long as those will stand up in court, but he cannot refuse on the grounds that he deems the currency not to be legal tender.

It's simple.

Yes I can grasp it thank you very much.

I am not sure I fully agree with everything you are saying though.

 

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