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Does anyone else see a certain irony in those Scots who favour getting out of the EU but favour staying in the UK?

Conversely, does anyone else see a certain irony in those Scots who favour getting out of the UK but favour joining the EU?

Makes you think, doesn't it?

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4 minutes ago, Hairy Scot said:

Does anyone else see a certain irony in those Scots who favour getting out of the EU but favour staying in the UK?

Conversely, does anyone else see a certain irony in those Scots who favour getting out of the UK but favour joining the EU?

Makes you think, doesn't it?

Not really mate. It is about personal opinion. If I was Scottish then I would favour staying part of the UK but ditching the EU. 

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25 minutes ago, Mr Magnificent said:

Not really mate. It is about personal opinion. If I was Scottish then I would favour staying part of the UK but ditching the EU. 

Possibly the lesser of two evils in the eyes of some.

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41 minutes ago, Hairy Scot said:

Does anyone else see a certain irony in those Scots who favour getting out of the EU but favour staying in the UK?

Not me. The Uk is a union within a larger union which started off as simple economic & trading integration which the UK joined in 1972 but since has grown arms and legs into the monster now known as the European Union which has an unelected inner sanctum consisting of commissioners & presidents who have far too much control over individual nation states. I have long desired leaving far longer than either Salmond or Sturgeon started their campaign for separation from the UK. As you'll be aware I'm a unionist who believes that Scotland is far better within the UK rather than out and the reasons the SNP put forward for separation before Indyref 1 and even for this latest campaign have not and do not dissolve my belief.

1 hour ago, Hairy Scot said:

Conversely, does anyone else see a certain irony in those Scots who favour getting out of the UK but favour joining the EU?

Yes. First of all despite the SNP's claim that if we leave the UK Scotland will be independent, that claim goes down the pan the moment Scotland applies to join the EU....mind boggling in the extreme. I honestly do not believe that the SNP has truly thought out what will be required from them if Scotland were to join the EU as a separated country. The party is riddled with liars and inadequates. Nicola Sturgeon has placed a lot of economic forecasts on North Sea oil & gas but still harps on about climate emergency and reducing emissions ? Hypocritical or what ?

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14 minutes ago, Harold said:

Not me. The Uk is a union within a larger union which started off as simple economic & trading integration which the UK joined in 1972 but since has grown arms and legs into the monster now known as the European Union which has an unelected inner sanctum consisting of commissioners & presidents who have far too much control over individual nation states. I have long desired leaving far longer than either Salmond or Sturgeon started their campaign for separation from the UK. As you'll be aware I'm a unionist who believes that Scotland is far better within the UK rather than out and the reasons the SNP put forward for separation before Indyref 1 and even for this latest campaign have not and do not dissolve my belief.

Yes. First of all despite the SNP's claim that if we leave the UK Scotland will be independent, that claim goes down the pan the moment Scotland applies to join the EU....mind boggling in the extreme. I honestly do not believe that the SNP has truly thought out what will be required from them if Scotland were to join the EU as a separated country. The party is riddled with liars and inadequates. Nicola Sturgeon has placed a lot of economic forecasts on North Sea oil & gas but still harps on about climate emergency and reducing emissions ? Hypocritical or what ?

You're preaching to the choir mate.

I was merely highlighting the paradoxes inherent in some of the arguments.
See my post in the other thread.

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1 hour ago, Hairy Scot said:

Does anyone else see a certain irony in those Scots who favour getting out of the EU but favour staying in the UK?

Conversely, does anyone else see a certain irony in those Scots who favour getting out of the UK but favour joining the EU?

Makes you think, doesn't it?

A big difference is, Westminster is a democracy.....

 

The EU isn't 

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Just now, Bastion said:

A big difference is, Westminster is a democracy.....

 

The EU isn't 

Debatable.

The EU is certainly a bureaucracy, and to some degree so is Westminster.
There is the myth that the MPs run the country, but in fact it is run by the civil service mandarins.

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15 minutes ago, Hairy Scot said:

You're preaching to the choir mate.

I was merely highlighting the paradoxes inherent in some of the arguments.
See my post in the other thread.

In the past I was a big fan of the SNP, but unfortunately the party has of late become a laughing stock.
It is so far to the left that it has outdone the SLP. It has become reliant on populist rather than effective policies.
I am definitely a right winger (Hail Maggie!) but I am not a fan of Westminster, and even less of a fan of Brussels.
Thanks god I am now an expat!
 

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49 minutes ago, Bastion said:

A big difference is, Westminster is a democracy.....

 

The EU isn't 

 

46 minutes ago, Mr Magnificent said:

And nor is Sturgeon and the SNP to be fair. 

 

7 minutes ago, Bastion said:

Very true, ignored two referendums......

Define democracy.

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3 minutes ago, Bastion said:

 

Screenshot_20200211-102352_Samsung Internet.jpg

I asked for your definition, not a quote of someone else's definition.

You do of course realise that what you quoted is a myth.

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30 minutes ago, Hairy Scot said:

I asked for your definition, not a quote of someone else's definition.

No need to act like a teacher Hairy....very offhand comment!

32 minutes ago, Hairy Scot said:

You do of course realise that what you quoted is a myth.

It's from a dictionary....how is it a myth ? Please explain. You've been hankering for this discussion for some time so let's go....

There are several reported definitions of democracy so imo the question is loaded. I also have c&p regarding the subject matter....

Democracy (Greek: δημοκρατία dēmokratía, literally "rule by people") is a form of government in which the people have the authority to choose their governing legislation. Who people are and how authority is shared among them are core issues for democratic development and constitution. Some cornerstones of these issues are freedom of assembly and speech, inclusiveness and equality, membership, consent, voting, right to life and minority rights.

Generally, there are two types of democracy: direct and representative. In a direct democracy, the people directly deliberate and decide on legislature. In a representative democracy the people elect representatives to deliberate and decide on legislature, such as in parliamentary or presidential democracy. Liquid democracy combines elements of these two basic types.

The most common decision making approach of democracies has been the majority rule (click on majority rule)

According to American political scientist Larry Diamond, democracy consists of four key elements: a political system for choosing and replacing the government through free and fair elections; the active participation of the people, as citizens, in politics and civic life; protection of the human rights of all citizens; a rule of law, in which the laws and procedures apply equally to all citizens.[7] Todd Landman, nevertheless, draws our attention to the fact that democracy and human rights are two different concepts and that "there must be greater specificity in the conceptualisation and operationalisation of democracy and human rights".

 

However for simplicity's sake, what we on the forum talk about and use the word 'democracy' and is 100% correct is regarding how the Scottish and UK electorate have voted in the two referendums held in which the results were democratically arrived at. To put it even simpler...the winners (and losers) were as a result of a democratic vote....ipso fcato....Democracy.

Now....let's see your definition Hairy.

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20 minutes ago, Harold said:

No need to act like a teacher Hairy....very offhand comment!

It's from a dictionary....how is it a myth ? Please explain. You've been hankering for this discussion for some time so let's go....

There are several reported definitions of democracy so imo the question is loaded. I also have c&p regarding the subject matter....

Democracy (Greek: δημοκρατία dēmokratía, literally "rule by people") is a form of government in which the people have the authority to choose their governing legislation. Who people are and how authority is shared among them are core issues for democratic development and constitution. Some cornerstones of these issues are freedom of assembly and speech, inclusiveness and equality, membership, consent, voting, right to life and minority rights.

Generally, there are two types of democracy: direct and representative. In a direct democracy, the people directly deliberate and decide on legislature. In a representative democracy the people elect representatives to deliberate and decide on legislature, such as in parliamentary or presidential democracy. Liquid democracy combines elements of these two basic types.

The most common decision making approach of democracies has been the majority rule (click on majority rule)

According to American political scientist Larry Diamond, democracy consists of four key elements: a political system for choosing and replacing the government through free and fair elections; the active participation of the people, as citizens, in politics and civic life; protection of the human rights of all citizens; a rule of law, in which the laws and procedures apply equally to all citizens.[7] Todd Landman, nevertheless, draws our attention to the fact that democracy and human rights are two different concepts and that "there must be greater specificity in the conceptualisation and operationalisation of democracy and human rights".

 

However for simplicity's sake, what we on the forum talk about and use the word 'democracy' and is 100% correct is regarding how the Scottish and UK electorate have voted in the two referendums held in which the results were democratically arrived at. To put it even simpler...the winners (and losers) were as a result of a democratic vote....ipso fcato....Democracy.

Now....let's see your definition Hairy.

I do not have a different definition. However it is my belief that what we have in the UK and many other countries is not in fact democracy.
The reasons for this are manifold, but a major factor is the electoral system used by most western countries.
Think about it.

Plus, devil's advocate once again.

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9 minutes ago, Hairy Scot said:

However it is my belief that what we have in the UK and many other countries is not in fact democracy.

well explain why ? Why is what I have posted incorrect & if it is not your belief that we have 'democracy'....what is your belief on what we have ?

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12 minutes ago, Harold said:

well explain why ? Why is what I have posted incorrect & if it is not your belief that we have 'democracy'....what is your belief on what we have ?

Take a look at election results which show that 9 times out of 10 the ruling party has in fact garnered fewer votes than would be required to form a government if it were not for the constituency and first past the post electoral system.

In addition look at the original Greek system which was the birth of democracy and spot the differences.

Furthermore, the 2014 and 2016 referenda are probably the only occasions when democracy was actually practised in the UK.

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8 minutes ago, Hairy Scot said:

Take a look at election results which show that 9 times out of 10 the ruling party has in fact garnered fewer votes than would be required to form a government if it were not for the constituency and first past the post electoral system

But that's what we have and have had for I don't know how long, in fact has it been any different in this country ? There are obviously going to be constituencies that have more or less eligible voters than others so that way we have a representative for each constituency....that's life. Why the hell should our democratic process be changed to suit those looking for what they perceive to be an easier 'in' ?

However, with Indyref 1.....it wasn't played out by constituencies, it was the overall 'No' & 'Yes' votes.....same with the EU In or Out referendum.

Re the original Greek system....too deep for me to go into in depth but I did notice.....The Greek system of direct democracy would pave the way for representative democracies across the globe.

which the UK has.

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2 minutes ago, Harold said:

which the UK has.

As I said, I dispute that on  number of points:-
1. The UK does not have majority rule. The electoral system negates that. Proportional Representation would produce different results.
2. In the original version of democracy those seeking election were denied on the grounds that the might have ulterior motives.

Given the electoral system and the type of person coming forward as candidates for election it is quite clear that the elected parliament of the UK in fact represents a minority. One could add to that the fact that civil servants, who are unelected, rather than MPs actually run the country.

As I may have said earlier; it's not democracy, it's bureaucracy.

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